With the discharge of her fourth solo album, Endlessly Is a Feeling, Lucy Dacus not solely pulls again the curtain with newfound fervor — she ties it with a sash. It’s greater than a peek at her inside world; it’s an invite to enter, and revel within the romantic axis it’s been turning on, one thing she’s mirrored outdoors of the album bubble, lately disclosing her relationship with boygenius band member Julien Baker, a matter they’ve saved mum for a while. Between thick layers of twinkling harp and pillowy guitars to her no-holds-barred lyricism — the album provides a young exploration of affection that evolves, in actual time, observe by observe, from trembling intimacy and craving trepidation to uncooked, blissful confession.
Learn extra: 8 important queer anthems, picked by Agender
Dacus has lengthy been recognized for her capacity to show private moments into profound, poetic songwriting. Since her debut LP, 2016’s No Burden, the Virginia-born artist’s profession has been an unbroken string of halcyon days — throughout three solo data, and her work as one-third of indie supergroup boygenius, her wit and soul-baring has seen industrial and demanding success. The depth of Dacus’ work diverges from most — hers is a perspective that strays from the drained, psychoanalytical indie-rock path, discovering its personal course and pace in emotionally charged enigmatism. Her private tales are painful, and resonant — anthems of affection and loss, meditations on queerness, and nostalgic pullings at childhood threads. Every file is filled with these tangible observations, although Dacus’ trademark lies within the existentialism and wealthy instrumentation they’ve been tangled in.
Vivian Kim
On this unique video interview, Dacus is joined by MUNA’s Katie Gavin. Final yr, Gavin, who will likely be accompanying Dacus on the Endlessly Is a Feeling tour, launched her personal debut solo album, the profound “Lilith Truthful-core” What A Aid. The mission additionally occurred to ruminate on need and romance — however Gavin’s tracklist wasn’t stuffed with conventional love songs. Fairly, she scrutinizes the obstacles of trying to find connection. Not regardless of — however doubtless due to — the 2 associates and collaborators’ idiosyncratic concepts in regards to the coronary heart, their respect for every others’ work, ideas, and opinions has change into prized.
For the duvet shoot, we drew from an iconic second in queer media — okay.d. lang’s 1993 Self-importance Truthful cowl with Cindy Crawford. lang was, and nonetheless is, a radical icon — along with her personal magnetic, musical interpretation of affection. In opposition to all odds, dealing with the backlash from Nashville’s nation scene — and a picket line that ran outdoors the identical Grammy ceremony the place she received Greatest Feminine Pop Vocal Efficiency — lang, a masc lesbian, held her floor, and mainstream success soared. A revolutionary in her personal proper, she teased tropes of masculine and female roles, espoused homosexual rights, and embodied mold-breaking sensuality. Her cultural impression permeated media, in a fashion far earlier than its time — from the Crawford cowl to that includes on a James Bond soundtrack, performing on the Olympics Opening Ceremony to showing on the Portlandia finale. As a lot as we’d prefer to assume instances have modified, in 2025, artists who don’t dispel their queerness and break into the mainstream stay as radical as ever. On our April cowl, Dacus and Gavin wished to play with lesbian masc-femme archetypes, and ended up highlighting a second that’s not solely iconic however brings to mild a musician whose musical integrity at all times got here earlier than any social assertion. Additionally, it felt kismet — this specific picture had been burning a gap on Dacus’ temper board, all of the whereas dwelling a double life as certainly one of Gavin’s Raya images.
On a cloudy day in LA, Dacus sat down with Gavin to debate the artistic course of behind her new file, their relationship historical past — and the speculation that “all issues in life apply to intercourse.” Their dialog — which regularly dissolved into matches of giggles — provides an entertaining dive into two of indie music’s most compelling artists, as a lot as a pair of deeply loving associates.
KATIE GAVIN: OK, so our first query is how we met and when did we first hear one another’s music.
LUCY DACUS: When did we truly meet?
KATIE GAVIN: I went to Sugarfish with you.
LUCY DACUS: That’s the primary time we frolicked?
KATIE GAVIN: Yeah. I believe we have been simply DMing.
LUCY DACUS: You’re finished up quite a lot of the time, and also you rolled up with a extremely lengthy scarf and glasses.
KATIE GAVIN: You bear in mind my outfit? That’s actually cute.
LUCY DACUS: In fact babe. [Laughs.] Additionally, I used to be so obsessive about Sugarfish on the time. When did I hear your music although? I believe my good friend Hadley, who went to highschool with you, launched me.
KATIE GAVIN: Sure. Oh, my god. I’m making an attempt to consider the primary time I heard your music. I believe I used to be in Nashville. I used to be doing songwriting classes, and I used to be simply speaking to each songwriter about you. I believe it was across the time that “Evening Shift” was actually popping off. I used to be listening to it on a regular basis. I used to be staying on my own for 10 days in Nashville and writing songs.
LUCY DACUS: Did you write with Mitski throughout that?
KATIE GAVIN: Yeah, I did. Not fruitfully.
LUCY DACUS: What songs?
KATIE GAVIN: Effectively, she got here to LA, and we labored on “No Concept” for the MUNA file.
LUCY DACUS: So good.
KATIE GAVIN: However once I wrote along with her in Nashville, I simply cried.
LUCY DACUS: That’s a superb write, once you don’t truly write. You possibly cry or no matter. Additionally, Julien [Baker] and Phoebe [Bridgers] have been superfans of you, and displaying me every thing. I believe it was in 2018, like early boygenius days. They have been identical to, “This track, after which this track…”
Vivian Kim
KATIE GAVIN: So Phoebe hadn’t signed us but then.
LUCY DACUS: She texted us, “I’ve the possibility to signal them. Ought to I do it?” And we have been like, “Your entire life relies on this.”
KATIE GAVIN: That’s attention-grabbing. “Ought to I do it?” [Lucy laughs.]
LUCY DACUS: No, she was bragging! It’s like, “Ought to I do it? This super-cute man needs to take me to promenade.”
KATIE GAVIN: “Ought to I am going?” That’s so humorous.
LUCY DACUS: No, however we have been like, “Clearly that is what any sane individual would do.”
KATIE GAVIN: That’s actually cute. After which we toured collectively, with the boys and MUNA — and now we’re touring collectively.
LUCY DACUS: Now we’re touring collectively.
KATIE GAVIN: I wish to speak about your album. I received to hearken to it this morning. It’s my favourite file of yours. I believe it’s your greatest one but. Which is such an enormous fucking feat as a result of it’s your fourth file. Are you aware that?
LUCY DACUS: I believe so. I prefer it one of the best. I believe it’s my greatest one. I really feel like I get nearer and nearer to [making] music I might hearken to.
KATIE GAVIN: And that’s actually onerous to do when there’s increasingly eyes on you. How’d you do this?
LUCY DACUS: Painstakingly. I used to be writing so much by means of boygenius, after which recorded some in Nashville.
KATIE GAVIN: You have been writing on tour, when you have been on cycle?
LUCY DACUS: Yeah. Do you write on tour?
KATIE GAVIN: Each on occasion. I used to be speaking about this final evening truly. We went to Elton John’s Oscar celebration final evening —
LUCY DACUS: We noticed the Chappell Roan play. With Elton John.
KATIE GAVIN: With Elton John. And we have been speaking to Hozier about this, who’s in your file. I believe I’ve written one or two precise songs on tour, nevertheless it doesn’t occur that a lot, as a result of I’m drained.
Vivian Kim
LUCY DACUS: I write so much on tour as a result of I’m at all times writing once I shouldn’t be. I really feel like I often write when it’s the mistress. I’ve to make it secret.
KATIE GAVIN: You stated that to me once I was beginning to do solo file stuff. I don’t know if truly you stated it or if it was another person.
LUCY DACUS: It was possibly me.
KATIE GAVIN: No, I do know it got here from you, however lots of people that we’re associates with are additionally quoting you on a regular basis.
LUCY DACUS: Are you critical? [Laughs.]
KATIE GAVIN: what I imply? So I don’t know if I truly heard it from you or if somebody… I believe it would’ve been Madison Cunningham quoting you.
LUCY DACUS: Superb. Shoutout Madison Cunningham.
KATIE GAVIN: I used to be feeling bizarre about leaving MUNA for a time frame to do the solo mission, however then it was like, “OK, effectively, when the solo mission turns into my fundamental squeeze, and I’m on cycle for that, then MUNA is gonna change into the mistress, and it’ll be good to be tempted to return to that once more.”
LUCY DACUS: The mistress will strengthen your marriage.
KATIE GAVIN: Sure, which is true. All the time.
LUCY DACUS: Esther Perel says — truly, you despatched me a podcast by Esther Perel. Nice thinker and relationship therapist… Was it you? I’m now considering that’s possibly not precisely your bag.
KATIE GAVIN: I don’t assume I’ve ever gotten deep sufficient right into a relationship to actually want to drag out the Esther Perel. [Laughs.]
LUCY DACUS: What’s the longest relationship you’ve had?
KATIE GAVIN: Naomi [McPherson]. What about you?
LUCY DACUS: Seven years. Or approaching seven years.
KATIE GAVIN: You’re good at love. You’re good at love songs as effectively — there’s so many on this file. I’m not excellent at love songs.
LUCY DACUS: What the hell are you speaking about?
KATIE GAVIN: Identify one love track that I’ve written.
LUCY DACUS: OK, attractive songs. You’re good at need. You’re good at craving.
KATIE GAVIN: Love itself?
LUCY DACUS: Woof. [Laughs.] “It’s Gonna Be Okay, Child” is form of a love track! It’s not a romance love track.
KATIE GAVIN: After I listened to your file this morning, I used to be like, “I believe that is extra love songs than I’ve ever written in my life on one album.” It’s so stunning. I talked about this so much once I put out my file — I’ve that track “As Good As It Will get” that’s form of only a breakup track I believed was a love track. However I used to be making an attempt to put in writing about having reasonable expectations for what intimacy seems like. You actually schooled me on that. There’s a lot actual intimacy on this file and issues that make me chortle ’trigger they’re so actual, nevertheless it’s additionally blissed out and genuinely romantic. Can I inform you certainly one of my favourite strains?
LUCY DACUS: Sure! That is so humorous. We’d’ve been doing this not on digital camera. I’ve been wanting your take.
KATIE GAVIN: “You’re sensible, however you’re dumb at coronary heart, and that’s a superb begin.”
LUCY DACUS: I really like that you considered that one as a standout. Nobody has introduced that one as much as me.
KATIE GAVIN: I really like that a lot. That’s what I’m on the lookout for — discovering a sensible individual which you could be dumb with.
LUCY DACUS: Sure. That’s so candy.
Vivian Kim
KATIE GAVIN: The manufacturing on that track is so fucking sick. Key adjustments…
LUCY DACUS: Thanks. It took so lengthy… I had written Endlessly As A Feeling as a sentence, after which I by no means wrote the track round it as a result of [I’m] lazy.
KATIE GAVIN: We’re each such lyric girlies. Does that occur to you numerous? You compile strains after which…
LUCY DACUS: Yeah, I’ve a observe in my telephone for annually, and it’s simply all these strains. So I’ll return generally if I’m making an attempt to complete a track, and simply scroll by means of 2022 and be like, “Something match?” Why kill your darlings for those who can simply let ’em sit in a cave for some time? Simply let ’em age, get higher or worse.
KATIE GAVIN: I believe there’s one thing to that. I’ve began doing that extra, however it’s important to be organized.
LUCY DACUS: I believe songwriting has so much to do with group.
KATIE GAVIN: Hate to say it. Wait, however inform me the way you wrote the track.
LUCY DACUS: [Laughs.] I mainly stitched collectively a bunch of concepts. I had that concept originally about realizing the shortcut to someplace — the opposite individual realizing the lengthy, stunning route — and never correcting them, so you possibly can spend extra time within the automotive.
KATIE GAVIN: I believed that was nearly intercourse. No? Effectively, I perceived that in a attractive method.
LUCY DACUS: Effectively, that’s good. That’s all I’ll say. That’s the opposite factor — sentiments about intercourse are relevant to life, and issues about life are relevant to intercourse. However I simply stitched all of it collectively, after which like to repeat one thing eight instances on the finish of a track, simply to hit it house.
KATIE GAVIN: I used to be occupied with this. I simply learn a Renee Gladman e book for the primary time. Have you ever ever learn any of her stuff? She has this little e book, My Lesbian Novel, I’ll give it to you.
LUCY DACUS: Oh, somebody simply gave me this.
KATIE GAVIN: That is like once you and E.R. [Fightmaster] despatched me the identical e book!
LUCY DACUS: Oh, E.R. gave you Communism of Love additionally? E.R. purchased this e book for eight folks, which I really like about them.
KATIE GAVIN: It’s so humorous. So the Renee Gladman e book, it’s a lesbian love story narrative, nevertheless it’s additionally interspersed with an interview between the creator and a good friend, about how she’s penning this story. She’s speaking about how usually when she writes, she doesn’t like realizing what’s going to occur. I don’t know if that is true in any respect for you, however generally your songs really feel like that to me. It’s like I’m on a stroll with you, and it feels such as you’re discovering the place you’re going on the identical time. Within the track [“Come Out”], there’s a line [where] you’re like, “All of the cities are the identical. They’ve the espresso store and this and that, after which they’ve this outdated couple that’s on a date, who’s not speaking.” After which, you arrive at this very romantic sentiment that you just’ve virtually backed into, and it simply sounds such as you didn’t know the place it was going. It felt so spontaneous.
Vivian Kim
LUCY DACUS: You’re so proper.
KATIE GAVIN: Did you not know the place you have been going?
LUCY DACUS: I by no means do. I imply, that’s why I write.
KATIE GAVIN: Whoa. That’s so totally different than me.
LUCY DACUS: , it is smart that you’d know the place you’re going, as a result of it seems so good.
KATIE GAVIN: No, nevertheless it’s additionally a fundamental critique of my songs. I’ll be like, “Right here’s the title, and it’s like that is the idea of the track.” Then it’s totally different metaphors that each one mirror the identical factor. It’s form of Nashville, old-school songwriting. You’re through-composing and discovering stuff spontaneously.
LUCY DACUS: Yeah. I most likely wrote that on a stroll throughout tour — and quite a lot of instances it’s simply what is going on. It’s extra in regards to the noticing than even being poetic or something. I had a good friend that listened to the file and stated, “I can inform that you just hearken to rap due to how a lot the rhythms rhyme.” what I’m saying?
KATIE GAVIN: The in rhymes.
LUCY DACUS: There’s in rhymes which are within the phrases, however truly the cadence rhyming…
KATIE GAVIN: It’s engaged on ranges y’all aren’t even conscious of.
LUCY DACUS: However you’re conscious. You do that. I believe it’s instinctual. I spotted it lately as a result of I used to be simply doing it…Then I lately put phrases to it, which I hope doesn’t spoil it. Do you ever fear that for those who say how you probably did the trick, you’ll by no means be capable to do it once more?
KATIE GAVIN: No.
LUCY DACUS: Effectively, I suppose we’re totally different, however we’re in the identical outfit.
Images: Vivian Kim
Styling: Ashley Furnival
Make-up: Amber Dreadon
Hair: Caitlin Wronski
BTS: Jordan Lovelis
Editor-in-Chief: Anna Zanes
Content material Editor: Neville Hardman
Lead Designer: Rob Ortenzi
